Power supply, Motherboard, or something else?

Discussion in 'PC Hardware' started by Jeff, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    One of my desktops (built a few years ago) right now not only won't boot,
    but won't even get to the bios. I get no video output at all. This is a
    fanless system with fanless power supply so it's a bit harder to tell what's
    going on. When I hit the power button, I can hear it click on. Some type of
    power is getting to the MB, since the power light on the MB is on. When I
    attach a case fan to the motherboard it starts for a second and then shuts
    off. If I push and hold the power button, I can hear the power supply click
    off. I don't have a spare power supply right now that isn't already
    installed in a computer, so it will be harder for me to test the machine
    with a different PS. Since I can hear the PS turn on and off and the fan
    runs briefly, I suspect that it isn't the power supply and is likely the MB.

    Any ideas about how I might figure out exactly what the problem is before I
    start taking this thing apart?

    Thanks

    Jeff
     
    Jeff, Dec 31, 2014
    #1
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  2. Jeff

    Rodney Pont Guest

    Either you get your crystal ball out or you take a power supply out of
    one of your other systems and try it in this one. I'm assuming that if
    you had a meter you would have used it.
     
    Rodney Pont, Dec 31, 2014
    #2
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  3. Jeff

    Flasherly Guest

    Been there, done that. But, no, your presumption the PS unit is good
    isn't -- the MB is just as likely good and there are other issues (not
    to rule out the PS). Having another PS in another computer, thing
    that's cool about that, is it starts getting easier each time such
    situations arise (damn, no spare). Best to pull the good/working one
    out for a test pwr-up to see what's revealed, deductively/logically
    speaking. Something different is just as likely to happen. Although
    you could start simply in another direction, like pulling everything
    on your fanless system, one at a time, that's not necessary for a boot
    -- to include cleaning, at least reseating your memory contacts, along
    with doublechecking all plugs are seated properly;- swap
    plugs/contacts, as well, when duplicates are optionally available. A
    fault might reveal itself and pop up. I've only had one, so far, that
    I reduced to a grounding-issue from case standoffs. I take them right
    down to a bootable MB on a towel, with a good PS, vid and keyboard;-
    then if it doesn't boot, I might worry about a MB.

    Never had a MB that "lost it," so to speak, although I've worn quite a
    few down to the point they'll exhibited anomalies first, not fail. Any
    MB I've "worn down into a state of senility" was way long past an
    update, anyway. They're some pretty tough ol' beastards, the better
    made brands, in my experience. (Didn't use to, but I'm now a firm
    believer in researching/buying only Top Notch PS makes.)

    Hey, I've gotten so bad, I only use one maybe two "thumb-screws" to
    hold in a PS;- cases, hell, screw the side opposite/parallel to the
    MB, which I never bother anymore putting back on. Not a hostile
    environ, I try watch what I'm doing with open computers laying around.
    They do run a little cooler and it's pretty easy getting in and out
    when need to "change things around" a bit.

    Pull your working PS, plug it in and see what happens. If it doesn't
    come up, tear it down, try again with it rebuild it on a towel instead
    of inside a case. (I've a spare jumper block and switches pulled from
    an old case I was probably using for assembling on a towel;- they're
    logical momentary-on states, anyway, and should be able to be shorted
    for a jumpstart.)
     
    Flasherly, Dec 31, 2014
    #3
  4. Jeff

    Paul Guest

    You need a multimeter.

    The ATX PSU "comes in two pieces". Two separate switching circuits
    exist in the supply. The +5VSB powers USB ports and supervisor logic
    (any logic which turns the computer on and off). The other three rails
    are the main power rails, and a bigger portion of the circuit
    is associated with that.

    ATX PSU

    AC Input ------+--- +5VSB circuit <--- controlled by switch on back
    |
    +--- +3.3/5.0/12V main section <--- controlled by PS_ON#

    On an Asus motherboard (with some new recent exceptions), there
    will be a green LED which runs off +5VSB. So you can tell the
    switcher for +5VSB is running. The +5VSB is a "supervisor voltage"
    and powers the logic that makes the rest of the machine work.

    Your "click" symptom suggests it's not an issue with getting PS_ON#
    to work, and turn on the main rails.

    +5VSB (0.0V level +5VSB
    | means "run please") |
    Pullup \_ Pullup
    Resistor \ Resistor
    | PS_ON# |
    PWR X----+---- Motherboard ---- Open -------------------+- ... control
    / logic Collector (to of main
    | GND X----+ Driver ATX + PSU
    | | supply) | section
    (Front GND GND
    Panel
    Switch - normally open, momentarily close to operate)

    To test the PSU, you could

    1) Connect a fan directly to a Molex or SATA 15 pin connector.
    This usually requires an adapter cable you might not have in
    your junk drawer. I actually bought some fans once, just to get
    the adapter cable that came in the box :) Running the fan directly
    off a Molex, makes a simple way to check +12V is there. It does not
    verify the exact voltage. For that you need...

    2) Multimeter, harbor freight, $20

    The multimeter, set to 20V full scale, and with the probes
    in the volt/ohm red and black holes, can be used to check
    the voltages. Note that the twits who designed this particular
    meter, didn't use black plastic for the right-most ground terminal :)
    The 20V DC scale is on the upper right, near the blue button. It's
    possible to get a quality meter for $20 - just check the reviews
    for comments about whether the thing is crappy or not.

    http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity®-Digital-Multimeter-Backlit-LCD/dp/B00KHP6EIK

    My crystal ball guess, is the fanless PSU has died. While
    it "clicked", perhaps one of the rails is weak, and there
    is not sufficient voltage to run things.

    My first IBM PC, the power supply failed on it. The 12V output
    runs at 12V when I connect one 12V 0.1A fan to it. If I connect
    two fans, or a hard drive, the 12V rail drops to 6V. Which
    means the outputs are a bit weak. It's only able to make
    about 5% of the output power it used to make. And I tested
    by grounding PS_ON# directly, with a ground wire.

    The PS_ON# control signal isn't purely digital. A level
    of 5V on the line, keeps the supply turned off. A level
    of 0.4-0.7V or so (logic low), turns it on. The "#" in the
    signal name, means the signal is "active low". Now, it is
    possible to cause a power supply to have a weak output,
    by feeding that logic signal a 1.5V to 2.0V level or so.
    It turns the supply "half on", using half the expected voltage.
    It makes the 12V weak, and unable to "hold up" a motherboard.
    So a weak supply isn't always a supply fault, but that
    exact set of circumstances isn't too common.

    I did a walkthrough on this with poster "Adam" in a recent
    thread, which is where my stick art diagrams come from.
    He used a multimeter, and since his fans would not run,
    the immediate suspicion was motherboard (no working PS_ON#).
    And a swapped motherboard, brought things up. Adam did a separate
    power supply test (grounding PS_ON#, checking for signs
    of power). But you can do something like that, with a
    newly purchased multimeter, and check to see if proper
    voltages are there after the "click".

    A power supply does not need a relay to work. But some
    of the supplies with no on/off switch at the back of the
    computer, they use a relay to apply mains power to themselves.
    That's a typical Apple trick, and a few Dells maybe, have that.
    The unit "clicks" a couple seconds after being plugged in,
    after which the green LED (motherboard power monitor LED),
    may be visible, and proof that the supervisor voltage
    is available. The +5VSB is also used to charge tablets
    and the like, via the USB port, when the computer is
    soft off.

    This site has plenty of pictures and tables, so you can
    probe stuff and check for voltages. You can even probe
    the main ATX PSU connector when it is plugged in. You connect
    the black wire, to an I/O screw on the back of the computer.
    As the metal around the I/O area is grounded. You can then use
    the red probe, and poke where the wire goes into the plastic
    shell of the connector. Enough exposed metal exists in there, to
    take electrical readings off each wire. While the PC is running.
    By only having to hold the red probe in your hand, you're
    less likely to short stuff out.

    http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html

    And these tests are a lot easier to do, if the motherboard
    and PSU are pulled out of the box, and tested on your
    kitchen table. With appropriate precautions being taken
    so the video card doesn't fall over, or get pulled out of
    the slot. Be very careful with the plugin cards, as they
    can easily get pulled from a slot and damage things in the
    process. Having the electronics on the table, makes it easier
    to get meter readings, but also makes it easier to
    damage a card or motherboard.

    Some computer cases, make it virtually impossible to pull
    a populated motherboard out of the case. There is a stiffener
    bar with rivets, to hold the chassis square, which prevents
    easy removal. On my latest build, I was able to lower the
    whole thing into place, in spite of one of those bars. So
    sometimes, you get lucky.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Dec 31, 2014
    #4
  5. Jeff

    Rodney Pont Guest

    To be honest I don't think a meter will help in this situation. We know
    the 5VSB is there because the led on the motherboard is on and we know
    it's sufficient to turn on the PSU because the fan starts and then
    stops and I don't think that will give time for a meter reading.

    The OP could unplug the disc drive, I've seen them pull a psu down and
    give these symptoms, a one week old 2TB Seagate drive earlier this year
    (replaced under warranty).
     
    Rodney Pont, Dec 31, 2014
    #5
  6. Jeff

    Paul Guest

    Sure. There's nothing wrong with an ad-hoc "try stuff"
    approach. On a computer, this is called "simplification"
    for want of a better word. Try removing stuff, a bit at
    a time, and look for a change in symptoms.

    You can also listen for beep codes, assuming the computer
    has something connected to the SPKR front panel pins. Even
    with pulling video card and RAM sticks, if you get a beep code
    it tells you the CPU is getting power and the CPU is running
    BIOS code. And that's half the motherboard tested right there.

    So there are a ton of ad-hoc tests, and interesting results
    to examine, to go further. It's all a question of whether
    a person wants to write out a flow chart, every time this
    happens :)

    And if you do volunteer a flow chart, it needs a lot of details.
    For example, once I suggested to someone, they pull the CMOS
    CR2032 battery and test it. And because I didn't give details
    on how to get the battery out, they managed to ruin the battery
    socket. That means I have to modify my suggested procedures
    a bit, like specify the purchase of a multimeter, probe the
    top surface of the CMOS battery and get a reading off it. As
    that is less dangerous, and a person won't snap off the
    battery socket while working on it. At least, at first.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Dec 31, 2014
    #6
  7. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    It appears that it is the power supply. I was able to find a spare and after
    plugging it in, the fan I plugged in stays on and so does the case's power
    light. The problem I will have is that the machine is a discontinued Zalman
    TNN300 totally noiseless with built-in power supply. I ran into one other
    post on-line where someone with more electrical experience than I have was
    speaking about attempting to repair the PS, but nothing else. I've emailed
    the merchant who sold me the case to see whether they know of an option.
    From what I gather, there was an external power supply for desktops made at
    one point, but it looks like that was discontinued also.


    Any ideas?
    (hard for me to believe that someone couldn't figure out how to remove a
    cmos battery! - sounds like someone who should even be opening the case)



    "Paul" wrote in message
    Sure. There's nothing wrong with an ad-hoc "try stuff"
    approach. On a computer, this is called "simplification"
    for want of a better word. Try removing stuff, a bit at
    a time, and look for a change in symptoms.

    You can also listen for beep codes, assuming the computer
    has something connected to the SPKR front panel pins. Even
    with pulling video card and RAM sticks, if you get a beep code
    it tells you the CPU is getting power and the CPU is running
    BIOS code. And that's half the motherboard tested right there.

    So there are a ton of ad-hoc tests, and interesting results
    to examine, to go further. It's all a question of whether
    a person wants to write out a flow chart, every time this
    happens :)

    And if you do volunteer a flow chart, it needs a lot of details.
    For example, once I suggested to someone, they pull the CMOS
    CR2032 battery and test it. And because I didn't give details
    on how to get the battery out, they managed to ruin the battery
    socket. That means I have to modify my suggested procedures
    a bit, like specify the purchase of a multimeter, probe the
    top surface of the CMOS battery and get a reading off it. As
    that is less dangerous, and a person won't snap off the
    battery socket while working on it. At least, at first.

    Paul
     
    Jeff, Dec 31, 2014
    #7
  8. A power supply that doesn't put out enough power or not good power
    will show exactly this failure.

    There's a short time that it's allowed to put out an inadequate
    voltage but once that time is up there's a deadman switch that kills
    it if the voltages are unacceptable.

    It puts out enough power to run the fan but one or more rails aren't
    to up the correct voltage when the timer runs out and the deadman
    kills it.

    (The purpose of the deadman is to kill it before the voltage gets far
    enough off spec that the computer might do errant things--like write
    crap to the HD.)
     
    Loren Pechtel, Dec 31, 2014
    #8
  9. I can't see the connection to the thread.

    I have had the experience, though--in a laptop. Swapping it would be
    a triviality, finding how to get to it is decidedly non-trivial. (The
    service manual doesn't even say where it's hiding.)
     
    Loren Pechtel, Dec 31, 2014
    #9
  10. Jeff

    Paul Guest

    The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
    They were bought by some other corporation, then the
    other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
    survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
    for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
    for suggestions.

    That power supply has a fairly unique form factor. It could be
    that some of the power components are mated to one side of the
    supply, so the heat can flow into the case wall.

    There are (or were) some fanless PSUs, up to around 400W. But
    at least some of these, they're probably relying on airflow
    from remaining fans in the computer case, to help the supply
    meet the power rating. If the supply was put into a tight box,
    it would likely overheat. Whereas the Zalman solution, is more
    likely to be using conduction rather than convection.

    Someone on the badcaps forum tried to work on a Zalman supply,
    and couldn't figure it out. It appeared in their case, that
    the Active PFC front end burned up. That could happen, if
    the TNN300 was powered by a non-sine wave UPS. There have
    been cases from when Active PFC first came out, where the
    kind of UPS used, influenced the health of the power supply.
    One of the side effects of Active PFC, is it places more
    DC on the high voltage side of the supply. So instead of
    320V on the hot side of the main cap, it might be 380V or so.
    This is all part of how the active PFC stage is able to adjust
    the phase angle of the current the supply draws. The naive
    PFC design relies on the input waveform always being a sine
    wave (as the PFC strives to draw a current waveform, which
    matches the shape of the incoming voltage waveform). When a
    square wave UPS is connected to one of those supplies, then the PFC
    is trying to make the current draw look like a matching square
    wave. Which to my way of thinking, could lead to some
    interesting results (because there is still a filter on
    the input stage, which has to eat the exotic waveform
    coming from the PFC).

    Now you know why Paul is careful not to buy Active PFC supplies.
    Not because they're not good supplies, but Paul knows his
    UPS is one of the bad kind :) I have to make do with my
    current contingent of supplies, because it would be
    relatively hard to find one without some PFC considerations.
    And I plan to get a few more years out of my $300 UPS.

    Another source of power would be a Pico supply, but they're
    not powerful enough for anything but small projects. You
    would need a laptop load, or a mini-ITX motherboard, to be
    in range of the power capabilities of one of these.

    http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=10#picoPSU-160-XT

    You could also place a regular ATX outside the Zalman, and
    run 24 pin extender cables. A pathetic solution, but, it's
    another way to do it.

    http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-8-Inch-Power-Extension-ATX24POWEXT/dp/B000FL60AI

    Fanless Seasonic, with modular cabling. Always check the
    reviews on the fanless ones, to get some idea the kind
    of electrical load they've been tested with (by te
    reviewers). And yes, this is active PFC. I can't imagine
    them not doing that now.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151097

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jan 1, 2015
    #10
  11. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    Umm,

    I will have to read your reply another time or two to digest it, but I got
    the basic idea. The machine went bad not long after I started using a new
    (and less-expensive than my old one) UPS after I moved overseas and found
    out that while my computers were dual voltage, the expensive UPS I had in
    the US was not.

    I saw the discussion on the badcaps forum you mentioned.

    What's probably going to occur is that I'm going to have to scrap the entire
    Zalman case and put the components into another case.

    So do I understand correctly that a non-sine wave UPS is inferior to and
    less expensive than a sine wave version?

    I seem to remember that the one I purchased was less expensive than others
    of the same brand for some reason that I didn't understand.




    "Paul" wrote in message
    The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
    They were bought by some other corporation, then the
    other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
    survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
    for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
    for suggestions.

    That power supply has a fairly unique form factor. It could be
    that some of the power components are mated to one side of the
    supply, so the heat can flow into the case wall.

    There are (or were) some fanless PSUs, up to around 400W. But
    at least some of these, they're probably relying on airflow
    from remaining fans in the computer case, to help the supply
    meet the power rating. If the supply was put into a tight box,
    it would likely overheat. Whereas the Zalman solution, is more
    likely to be using conduction rather than convection.

    Someone on the badcaps forum tried to work on a Zalman supply,
    and couldn't figure it out. It appeared in their case, that
    the Active PFC front end burned up. That could happen, if
    the TNN300 was powered by a non-sine wave UPS. There have
    been cases from when Active PFC first came out, where the
    kind of UPS used, influenced the health of the power supply.
    One of the side effects of Active PFC, is it places more
    DC on the high voltage side of the supply. So instead of
    320V on the hot side of the main cap, it might be 380V or so.
    This is all part of how the active PFC stage is able to adjust
    the phase angle of the current the supply draws. The naive
    PFC design relies on the input waveform always being a sine
    wave (as the PFC strives to draw a current waveform, which
    matches the shape of the incoming voltage waveform). When a
    square wave UPS is connected to one of those supplies, then the PFC
    is trying to make the current draw look like a matching square
    wave. Which to my way of thinking, could lead to some
    interesting results (because there is still a filter on
    the input stage, which has to eat the exotic waveform
    coming from the PFC).

    Now you know why Paul is careful not to buy Active PFC supplies.
    Not because they're not good supplies, but Paul knows his
    UPS is one of the bad kind :) I have to make do with my
    current contingent of supplies, because it would be
    relatively hard to find one without some PFC considerations.
    And I plan to get a few more years out of my $300 UPS.

    Another source of power would be a Pico supply, but they're
    not powerful enough for anything but small projects. You
    would need a laptop load, or a mini-ITX motherboard, to be
    in range of the power capabilities of one of these.

    http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=10#picoPSU-160-XT

    You could also place a regular ATX outside the Zalman, and
    run 24 pin extender cables. A pathetic solution, but, it's
    another way to do it.

    http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-8-Inch-Power-Extension-ATX24POWEXT/dp/B000FL60AI

    Fanless Seasonic, with modular cabling. Always check the
    reviews on the fanless ones, to get some idea the kind
    of electrical load they've been tested with (by te
    reviewers). And yes, this is active PFC. I can't imagine
    them not doing that now.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151097

    Paul
     
    Jeff, Jan 1, 2015
    #11
  12. Jeff

    Paul Guest

    The step approximation to a sine is definitely cheaper than a
    pure sine UPS. That's how you can make a $50 UPS.

    The blue waveform here, is what my UPS would be doing. It's
    a step, which crudely approximates a sine wave. It would have
    a high harmonic content.

    http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608006724868444069&pid=15.1&P=0

    I'm not sure what the red waveform in that picture is meant to imply.
    I thought for pure sine, they're a lot better approximation than that.

    The red waveform here isn't bad. Maybe not "home theater"
    quality (in the Monster cable sense, not the practical sense),
    but probably good enough for some Active PFC computer supplies.

    http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/True%20vs%20stepped%20sine.png

    This is an example of a cheap pure sine. It must be in the
    bottom tier, based on the failure reports from the users.
    A three year battery life isn't exactly something to
    celebrate. On my UPS, I got ten years from the battery
    (amazing). And I purchased a new battery cartridge and
    it's as good as new.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102133

    For some reason, this one has better reviews, and is
    very similar to the previous one. This one has AVR
    (automatic voltage regulation), where the unit can
    buck or boost the AC which is still flowing from the
    utility. Which is fine if your utility allows the
    voltage to wander all over the place.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102134

    There are an amazing number of different architectures
    for UPS designs. And it's pretty hard to stay current
    on how they're able to do this for the price point.
    At one time, they would have been $1000 or so.

    Those units don't have nearly enough runtime, if
    you planned on "running off-grid" for a while
    on a failure. THey're basically rated high enough,
    so that you can do a clean shutdown on the computer,
    and that's about all. That is, if you're running them
    near the stated limits (the Watt or Volt-Ampere rating).

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jan 1, 2015
    #12
  13. If it turns on, even briefly, it probably means that the main +5V (as
    opposed to the +5Vstandby -- the thing that powers the motherboard LED)
    is working, at least sort of. Fans running means the +12V is putting
    out at least +5V - +6V. One way to test these is with a DVD or CD
    drive. It doesn't matter whether it's SATA or PATA; just connect it
    to the power supply, and if you can open and close the door through
    the button, very likely the +12V and +5V are OK because these drives
    won't work if those voltages are 10% below specs. But all this
    leaves the +3.3V in question, which most motherboards need to
    power many of the smaller chips, and I don't know how to test it
    except with a multimeter. Cheap digital meters, including the ones
    that are usually less than $3 or even free from Harbor Freight with
    a coupon and any purchase, are fine for testing this.

    So did the computer work when you tried the other power supply?

    Could these products be covered by a credit card? Most cards
    add up to a year of coverage over the manufacturer's warranty
    if latter is up to 1 year (Mastercard), 3 years (Visa and,
    more recently, Discover), and American Express (5 years). Coverage
    don't apply until after the manufacturer's warranty has expired,
    but if the manufacturer is out of business, you should be able
    to contest this as a billing error because you paid for not just
    the product but also its warranty and didn't get the warranty.
     
    larrymoencurly, Jan 1, 2015
    #13
  14. Jeff

    Gremlin Guest

    Limiting options here aren't you? :) A multi meter, and power supply
    tester, would be good things for your toolkit.

    As you have another power supply available to you that you know is
    working, I'd give it a shot with the system that seems to be down. I
    know you said you didn't want to do that, but it's one of the quickest
    troubleshooting steps you can take, without a multimeter and/or power
    supply tester available. otherwise, I'd just use those first on the PS
    currently in the dead computer.

    At some point, you're going to have to mess with various components if
    you intend to repair the system anyhow. Might as well start with
    another power supply.

    Going only from previous experience, this is nothing more than an
    educated guess, but I'd say your system has a dead power supply.
     
    Gremlin, Jan 1, 2015
    #14
  15. Jeff

    Diesel Guest

    Oops. nevermind. I was obviously, late to the thread here. :)
     
    Diesel, Jan 1, 2015
    #15
  16. Jeff

    Jax Guest

    Why are you nym shifting within a single thread? You posted as
    Gremlin and now as Diesel. You're BUSTED!
     
    Jax, Jan 1, 2015
    #16
  17. Ignore the "insult" from a previous post, Jax.

    I posted that I couldn't believe you didn't figure out that DuckLiar
    was forging his own headers.

    Glad to see your on board.

    The BBS crap in SE is what told me for sure it he doing his own dirty
    work and not some "forger".
     
    John Kennerson, Jan 1, 2015
    #17
  18. Jeff

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    You can get a power supply tester, that looks something like this:

    http://img.weiku.com/waterpicture/2011/10/22/12/LED_power_supply_tester_634591876037711902_5.jpg

    Or even something a bit more sophisticated like this one:

    http://www.quietpc.com/images/products/x_psu_tester.jpg

    Yousuf Khan
     
    Yousuf Khan, Jan 2, 2015
    #18
  19. Jeff

    Bill Guest

    Bill, Jan 2, 2015
    #19
  20. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    I received the following suggested work-around for an external power supply
    (the two links below) from the place I bought the case from a few years ago.
    I might go for it at some point, but for now I have other machines to use.
    One was built in a Moneual case. As I was reading up on this issue, I came
    across some info on Zalman that elaborates upon what you've mentioned below.
    Apparently, Moneual bought Zalman and then the CEOs engaged in some type of
    fraud where they were claiming much higher sales than they actually had.
    From what was claimed in the article I read on-line, this was done on
    purpose in order to default on loans and use the money for other reasons. So
    now when I look up Moneual to get info on my case, the only thing they are
    currently selling is robotic vacuum cleaners. Bizarre.

    By the way, I did hook up my Zalman machine to another power supply and it
    booted just fine. I'll have to learn to use a meter in the future.

    Thanks for the help and info.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0045WFZSQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie
    =UTF8&psc=1

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007XVD452/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie
    =UTF8&psc=1


    "Paul" wrote in message
    The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
    They were bought by some other corporation, then the
    other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
    survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
    for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
    for suggestions.
     
    Jeff, Jan 4, 2015
    #20
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