GPS Chip ?

Discussion in 'iPhone' started by Bob, Dec 24, 2014.

  1. Bob

    Guest Guest

    you're mistakenly assuming there is no other way to update it.
    Guest, Dec 30, 2014
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  2. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    No it isn't because what they get from iDevices in the wild doesn't
    LOCATE those wifis accurately and can't possibly do that.
    How odd that the iDevice howls about the location accuracy
    being reduced when you turn that off to save the battery.
    No iDevice can accurately LOCATE where the bssid actually is.

    Keep furiously digging that hole you are in.
    You'll be out in china any day now.
    It certainly is not sent over cellular data because if it was I would
    have seen it show up on what I pay for my cellular data use.
    Whatever that's supposed to mean. Its not IDENTIFIED
    to a particular iDevice, a different matter entirely.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
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  3. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    Yes, because that data is locally generated.
    And here you are desperately slithering off
    from your original claim that it absolutely
    certainly comes from apple's servers after
    even you have noticed that not even apple
    claims that it comes from apple's servers.
    Wrong again. Its what Apple is talking about when it
    said in what you quoted from Apple where it says that
    it can take quite a while to work out what satellites
    are visible to the iDevice without the local database
    of bssids and cellphone towers it can see.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  4. Bob

    john james Guest

    Trouble is that there is no way for an apple
    device to accurately locate a bssid that it can see.
    john james, Dec 30, 2014
  5. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    Nope, urban trains and buses don't move any faster than cars do.
    Wrong, as always. Plenty don't block data when there is no data
    plan and just charge outrageously for the data that does get used.

    In spades with roaming data.
    And that's true in spades if you don't have a data plan.

    And for that reason Apple won't actually be stupid enough
    to move anything using cellular data behind your back.
    You can't locate the iDevice with just a simple database query, stupid.

    You can however get a good enough location
    that way so that its trivial to calculate what
    GPS satellites will be visible there and so
    get a GPS fix a lot quicker than without that.
    Particularly when it doesn't have 3 or more wifis
    or cell towers to triangulate when not enough GPS
    satellites are visible to get the location that way.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  6. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.
    Even Apple doesn't claim that for other than more
    quickly working out which GPS satellites are visible
    so the first GPS fix after the phone has moved a long
    way when off or with the GPS turned off is done quicker.
    Having fun thrashing that straw man ?
    It clearly doesn't cache a subset of the apple
    database locally, if that was what is in it, there
    is no point in backing that up with iTunes, stupid.
    It doesn't fall back to GPS, it uses that data
    to work out which GPS satellites are visible
    after its been moved a long way with the
    phone off or with the GPS turned off and
    uses those GPS satellites quicker.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  7. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    Never said it didn't. I JUST said that what it uses
    when the GPS satellites are not visible isnt a
    local subset of the apple database, its what
    it has logged for itself when the GPS satellites
    were visible. Apple's database is used for
    something else entirely, working out faster
    which GPS satellites should be visible when
    the phone is moved a long way with the
    phone off or the GPS disabled, usually
    on a plane flight.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  8. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    Nope, iDevices have no way to determine
    ACCURATELY the location of SSIDs that it sees.

    The most an iDevice can ever determine is that
    that SSID is visible by the iDevice that is located
    where it has determined the GPS service says it is.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  9. Bob

    JF Mezei Guest

    The main difference is that the train has a number of Wi-Fi transmitters
    (one per car) which travel with the train, so the BSSID of each car is
    seen in many locations as the train travels.

    So a passenger's iPhone may report a BSSID being in New York, and a
    passennger in the same car may report 15 minutes later that BSSID is in
    New Jersey, another one may report it in in Philadelphia, and yet
    another one in Washington.

    Perhaps the databases flag certain BSSIDS as being "mobile" (trains,
    buses, airplanes) and while they accept update transactions, don't
    actually update them and if a phone requests location for such a BBSID ,
    the database will return "empty" or "not known".
    JF Mezei, Dec 30, 2014
  10. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    Doesn’t happen with buses.
    Or there are so few of them that there isnt any point in
    having those in the database at all given that they are
    obviously mobile and are of no use when working out
    the rough location of an iDevice when its been turned
    on after moving a long way turned off or with the GPS
    turned off.

    Still doesn’t explain why the iDevice howls about the loss
    of location accuracy when you turn off wifi and bluetooth.

    Or why the cellphone bases arent all
    it needs for the first situation either.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  11. Bob

    JF Mezei Guest

    Canada has over 100 train cars equipped with Wi-Fi. Amtrak has far more.
    And in Europe, there would be thousands of train cars each with their
    own BSSID.

    With only 25% market share, this still represents a hell of a lot of
    iPhone users taking trains and buses everyday, with each iPhone
    reporting a different location for the same BSSID.

    Planes are same problem and still carry a large number of people (a
    150pax plane doing 7 trips a day would end up carrying just over 1000
    pax. And while few passengers would actually pay for the wi-fi, they
    would all see it and report its location when the iphone does have
    location lock and would be for wildly varying places depending on where
    the plane flies.

    Marketing stuff to make people turn on wi-fi to help Apple collect/build
    its wi-fi database.
    JF Mezei, Dec 30, 2014
  12. Bob

    Rod Speed Guest

    Sure, but that is still a fart in the bath compared
    with the number of static wifi routers alone.
    Still a fart in the bath compared with
    the number of static wifi routers alone.
    Still a fart in the bath compared with
    the number of static wifi routers alone.
    FAR more would be reporting what they see when driving their cars.
    Nope, a quite different problem in fact given that so many of them
    still don’t allow you to leave your cellphone running below 10K feet.
    **** all of them do anything like that.
    Few of whom would be allowed to leave their cellphones
    operating so they can report back to Apple on the plane's bssid.
    Not if they have their phone in airplane mode they wouldn’t.
    Which it wouldn’t when in the plane.
    And so those would be trivial to bin for that reason.
    Rod Speed, Dec 30, 2014
  13. Bob

    JF Mezei Guest

    It isn't the number of BSSIDs that exist that matters in this case, but
    rather the number of people who see them. Trains tend to carry a lot of
    people over a year, with each reporting it is seeing a BSSID in various

    Also, do not underestimate trains even in North America. Apparently,
    Amtrak carries more people between New York and Washington than any
    other more of transportation (including cars). And that means a lot of
    people report back on seeing an Amtrak BSSID (one per car), again, in a
    large variety of locations.

    Yes, but how many people report seeing a static BSSID in a residential
    street ? Only people driving on that street and that is generally very
    low number. And it isn't even a given that driving on that street, the
    phone woudl even bother picking up BSSIDs.
    But planes that provide Wi-Fi would allow the phone to report back to
    Apple while in flight.

    Pretty sure those who run the datbases deal with these situations of
    mobil hotspots in trains, planes and ferries/cruise ships. But still an
    interesting problem and curious to see how they deal with it.
    JF Mezei, Dec 30, 2014
  14. Bob

    Alan Browne Guest

    The "log and report BSSID's" function in iPhones would not be accessible
    by the user of the iPhone and should not be spoofable. The reporting
    portion would likely use encryption - likely with keys that are not
    those used by the iPhone user. Lastly, the database side may need
    several independent (different BSSID's) before registering a BSSID location.
    Alan Browne, Dec 30, 2014
  15. Bob

    Alan Browne Guest

    Correction: same BSSID's but from different phones. So some info about
    the actual phone could be needed - not necessarily tying it to the user
    ID or phone number.
    Alan Browne, Dec 30, 2014
  16. Bob

    Alan Browne Guest

    Easy to reject at both the phone (collecting the data) and at the data
    base system validating the data.
    Alan Browne, Dec 30, 2014
  17. Bob

    Guest Guest

    yes it can, and does.

    stop babbling about what you know nothing about.
    there's nothing odd about it. the warning is because of bluetooth
    ibeacons, which can be used for location inside buildings and turning
    off bluetooth as a negligible effect on the battery anyway.
    wifi base stations are almost always in a fixed location.

    base stations are installed in people's houses, in office buildings, in
    libraries and coffeeshops, etc., and rarely, if ever, move.

    if one does move, such as a person moving from one house to another
    house the next town over (or even farther away), then its location gets
    updated. not a big deal.
    yes it can, and does.
    it can go over wifi.
    Guest, Dec 30, 2014
  18. Bob

    Guest Guest

    yes there is.
    Guest, Dec 30, 2014
  19. Bob

    Guest Guest

    how fast it moves doesn't matter. it's an edge case that's trivial to
    detect and deal with.
    if data can flow, then there is a data plan of some kind. no data plan
    means no data. what you describe is a pay per kilobyte plan.
    yes you can and very easily in fact.
    the fact you're calling people stupid is proof that you know nothing
    about how it works.
    it doesn't need 3 wifi base stations.
    Guest, Dec 30, 2014
  20. Bob

    Guest Guest

    yes you did.
    yes it is a subset.
    nope. it *also* includes crowd-sourced data *from* apple that was
    generated by *other* users.
    nope. getting an updated ephemeris is something else entirely.

    you have no idea what you're talking about.
    Guest, Dec 30, 2014
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