OT: Apple TV release dates ?

Discussion in 'iPhone' started by JF Mezei, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. JF Mezei

    JF Mezei Guest

    Since Apple TV is an IOS device, I figured this might be the best newsgroup.

    In the past, when the new Apple TV was released, was this done in
    conjunction with Macs, iPhone ? ipods ? ipads ?


    I am considering my entertainment options. My Sony BR player gives me
    access to Sony's equivalent to itunes store (Video Unlimited). Just
    wondering when a new model of Apple TV might come out to see if it woudl
    have any advantage over a sony BR player.
     
    JF Mezei, Jan 13, 2012
    #1
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  2. JF Mezei

    Davoud Guest

    JF Mezei:
    > Since Apple TV is an IOS device, I figured this might be the best newsgroup.


    > In the past, when the new Apple TV was released, was this done in


    > I am considering my entertainment options. My Sony BR player gives me
    > access to Sony's equivalent to itunes store (Video Unlimited). Just
    > wondering when a new model of Apple TV might come out to see if it woudl
    > have any advantage over a sony BR player.


    You know Apple well enough to know that there is no chance whatsoever
    that anyone here knows the answer to that. I do know this, however: if
    your Sony works and you are satisfied with it, it makes no sense to
    toss it out.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Jan 13, 2012
    #2
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  3. JF Mezei

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-13 06:08 , JF Mezei wrote:
    > Since Apple TV is an IOS device, I figured this might be the best newsgroup.
    >
    > In the past, when the new Apple TV was released, was this done in
    > conjunction with Macs, iPhone ? ipods ? ipads ?
    >
    >
    > I am considering my entertainment options. My Sony BR player gives me
    > access to Sony's equivalent to itunes store (Video Unlimited). Just
    > wondering when a new model of Apple TV might come out to see if it woudl
    > have any advantage over a sony BR player.


    Apple TV was(is?) a "hobby" shop at Apple. They never expected much to
    come of it. The units were sold as much to earn user feedback as
    anything else.

    There are ample rumours of an Apple television set coming in 2 sizes
    this year.

    And that won't be a hobby for Apple - it will possibly be the non plus
    ultra of entertainment distribution and consumption. (The usual
    television makers have been going all out on connectivity and
    multi-media options of late - and some new players like Lenovo are
    stepping into "television" as well. They all know or believe Apple are
    coming and are trying to lock in customers now).

    When? Really? Come on, you know better than that.

    You can DL MacTracker which includes Apple TV and see if there is
    anything you believe is more than a coincidence.

    I've been mulling my BR (Panasonic, no connectivity) player and my
    plasma (2 HDMI inputs, only (BR and HD-TV)). The spec of the Apple TV
    will be very interesting to me - but I suspect it will have enough of
    the usual Apple limitations that I will shy from it.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 13, 2012
    #3
  4. JF Mezei

    JF Mezei Guest

    Davoud wrote:

    > that anyone here knows the answer to that. I do know this, however: if
    > your Sony works and you are satisfied with it, it makes no sense to
    > toss it out.



    Oh, i won't toss my sony VCR. It has internet connectivity, gives me
    netflix, youtube etc. It has far better connectivity than the Sharp
    Aquos TV. I was actually quite susprised with it when I bought it a
    couple montsh ago. (and yes, I call still call it a "VCR" even though it
    is closer to a CD player than a assette recorder.


    However, I am pondering how I should go about entertainment. Whether it
    sould be cloud sourced (aka: streamed to the TV without local copy) and
    pay the $5.00 everytime for the rental, or whether I should just buy
    BR/DVD media or just download the movies without any DRM from sources
    which are not MPAA-approved.


    This may sound stupid, but are there DVR boxes that allow me to record
    from HDMI input ? AKA: record to disk the output of a BR player or the
    output of a digital tuner ? If that were the case, then I wouldn't
    object to paying $5.00 to stream a movie because I could then record it
    and play it back later.


    On the other hand, should Apple come out with a compelling offer, I
    might consider getting an Apple TV an have it drive my television set
    and source content from Itunes.


    netflix recently pulled some british TV programmes from its line up due
    to the feud with some MPAA members. (such as Yes Minister etc (at least
    from canada, not sure if they were pulled from USA as well))


    There are movies that are worth it. Something like Avatar. And then
    there are movies that are fun to watch like "meet the fokkers" but for
    which I wouldn't really want to pay much or even take up disk storage.
     
    JF Mezei, Jan 14, 2012
    #4
  5. In article <>,
    Alan Browne <> wrote:

    > The spec of the Apple TV will be very interesting to me - but I suspect
    > it will have enough of the usual Apple limitations that I will shy from
    > it.


    I doubt that I will buy one, at least not in the next two years, and
    probably not for quite a while after that. I still have two years to pay
    off on my current TV set (at 0% interest), so I won't be in the market for
    a new one until then at the earliest.

    Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen, I
    won't get it; no sense in downsizing.

    The one thing that would lead me to buying one would be if it offered
    networks and stations ala cart, unbundled, at prices that are competitive
    with cable and satellite systems.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jan 14, 2012
    #5
  6. In article <4f10f9fe$0$5630$c3e8da3$>,
    JF Mezei <> wrote:

    > This may sound stupid, but are there DVR boxes that allow me to record
    > from HDMI input ? AKA: record to disk the output of a BR player or the
    > output of a digital tuner ? If that were the case, then I wouldn't
    > object to paying $5.00 to stream a movie because I could then record it
    > and play it back later.


    No, and I doubt that there will be any time soon because of copyright and
    digital protection issues.

    Right now, movie rentals via the internet and (I think) cable and satellite
    have a 30-day window to start watching them from time you order them and a
    24-hour window to finish watching them from the time you started watching.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jan 14, 2012
    #6
  7. JF Mezei

    Davoud Guest

    Michelle Steiner:
    > Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen, I
    > won't get it; no sense in downsizing.


    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't buy one unless it
    were available with a 32" screen (in addition to any other sizes)
    because I will not have a TV larger than 32" in my home. In fact, I
    don't want a TV in my home at all, but my wife is a sports fan....

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Jan 14, 2012
    #7
  8. JF Mezei

    JF Mezei Guest

    Michelle Steiner wrote:

    > Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen, I
    > won't get it; no sense in downsizing.


    If Apple is to have a compelling "all in one" offering, it will not only
    have to have an actual television display with electronics inside, but
    also a stand alone "apple TV" that can plug in to existing TVs.

    Note that Samsung and others are coming out with more and more connected
    TV sets to pre-empt Apple's entry into the market.

    It is quite possible that entertainment of the future will not some from
    one source but perhaps many. Perhaps you'll need a subscription to Sony,
    one to iTunes and one to Netflix and one to some other service etc etc.
     
    JF Mezei, Jan 14, 2012
    #8
  9. JF Mezei

    Glenn Shaw Guest

    Michelle Steiner <> wrote in
    news:-september.org:

    > Right now, movie rentals via the internet and (I think) cable and
    > satellite have a 30-day window to start watching them from time you
    > order them and a 24-hour window to finish watching them from the time
    > you started watching.


    One exception to the 30-day "start watching" window are video rentals from
    Microsoft's Zune Marketplace, which have a 14-day window:

    http://www.zune.net/en-
    us/support/zunemarketplace/videos/buyingrentingvideos.htm

    (Apologies if the URL wraps.)

    --
    Glenn Shaw | Indianapolis, IN USA
    To reply by e-mail, swap the net and cast
     
    Glenn Shaw, Jan 14, 2012
    #9
  10. JF Mezei

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-14 02:43 , JF Mezei wrote:
    > Michelle Steiner wrote:
    >
    >> Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen, I
    >> won't get it; no sense in downsizing.

    >
    > If Apple is to have a compelling "all in one" offering, it will not only
    > have to have an actual television display with electronics inside, but
    > also a stand alone "apple TV" that can plug in to existing TVs.
    >
    > Note that Samsung and others are coming out with more and more connected
    > TV sets to pre-empt Apple's entry into the market.


    Those who have reviewed those sets indicate that they are all bells and
    whistles without the seamless integration. It's that integration that
    Apple do so well that has those co's attempting a pre-emption that will
    just be poorly integrated experience.

    > It is quite possible that entertainment of the future will not some from
    > one source but perhaps many. Perhaps you'll need a subscription to Sony,
    > one to iTunes and one to Netflix and one to some other service etc etc.


    This is the Venn effect of having a lot of overlap in a few services in
    an attempt to get ones personal menu of entertainment. OTOH, I've been
    giving thought to dumping my cable service (including cable, HD cable
    and telephone) for a higher bandwidth (cable internet) service and do it
    all via the internet. We have cell phones and don't need the land line
    much anymore.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 14, 2012
    #10
  11. JF Mezei

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-14 01:46 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
    > In article<>,
    > Alan Browne<> wrote:
    >
    >> The spec of the Apple TV will be very interesting to me - but I suspect
    >> it will have enough of the usual Apple limitations that I will shy from
    >> it.

    >
    > I doubt that I will buy one, at least not in the next two years, and
    > probably not for quite a while after that. I still have two years to pay
    > off on my current TV set (at 0% interest), so I won't be in the market for
    > a new one until then at the earliest.
    >
    > Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen, I
    > won't get it; no sense in downsizing.
    >
    > The one thing that would lead me to buying one would be if it offered
    > networks and stations ala cart, unbundled, at prices that are competitive
    > with cable and satellite systems.


    I bet the Apple TV will confuse rather than clarify the television
    package landscape.

    Ideally, one package and system would access any and all content - at a
    price to be sure.

    What will happen is the usual Venn diagram of access overlap and
    unavailability.

    Rant follows.
    It will be interesting to see if the assholes at the Canadian Radio and
    Television Commission decide to regulate internet television with
    Canadian content rules [though I don't see how they would be able to, so
    the internet may be the way to break them once and for all].

    Currently cable and satellite services must provide at minimum 50% of
    channels which are Canadian origin. This has resulted in
    cable/satellite co's charging for channels that nobody wants thereby
    subsidizing mediocrity. eg: Say you want a package that includes the 4
    US networks and PBS, then you have to have at least 5 Canadian channels
    even if only 2 or 3 are useful. Getting the Nananvut Network channel is
    not very appealing.

    My neighbors have two "illegal" American satellite receivers to get
    around those rules.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 14, 2012
    #11
  12. JF Mezei

    Davoud Guest

    Glenn Shaw:
    > http://www.zune.net/en-
    > us/support/zunemarketplace/videos/buyingrentingvideos.htm
    >
    > (Apologies if the URL wraps.)


    If you put a long URL between less-than and greater-than signs <> no
    apology is needed for most newsreaders.
    <http://www.zune.net/en-us/support/zunemarketplace/videos/buyingrentingv
    ideos.htm>

    Sometimes this problem can be avoided by visiting tinyurl.com
    <http://tinyurl.com/7xaxcpe>.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Jan 14, 2012
    #12
  13. JF Mezei

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-14 01:49 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
    > In article<4f10f9fe$0$5630$c3e8da3$>,
    > JF Mezei<> wrote:
    >
    >> This may sound stupid, but are there DVR boxes that allow me to record
    >> from HDMI input ? AKA: record to disk the output of a BR player or the
    >> output of a digital tuner ? If that were the case, then I wouldn't
    >> object to paying $5.00 to stream a movie because I could then record it
    >> and play it back later.

    >
    > No, and I doubt that there will be any time soon because of copyright and
    > digital protection issues.
    >
    > Right now, movie rentals via the internet and (I think) cable and satellite
    > have a 30-day window to start watching them from time you order them and a
    > 24-hour window to finish watching them from the time you started watching.


    Each service has its policy - but in the ballpark of the above. Some
    services also allow you to watch the film as many times you like in the
    'watch window' period.

    I find DVD's/BR's at reasonable prices (a few months to a year after
    release) and buy them from Amazon and the $5 bin at Wal*Mart.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 14, 2012
    #13
  14. In article <4f11323c$0$9020$c3e8da3$>,
    JF Mezei <> wrote:

    > > Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen,
    > > I won't get it; no sense in downsizing.

    >
    > If Apple is to have a compelling "all in one" offering, it will not only
    > have to have an actual television display with electronics inside, but
    > also a stand alone "apple TV" that can plug in to existing TVs.


    They already have that, but they would need to beef up what it can deliver.

    > Note that Samsung and others are coming out with more and more connected
    > TV sets to pre-empt Apple's entry into the market.


    They have been offering internet connected TVs for a few years already;
    there are also internet connected Blu-Ray players, which I think sparked
    the idea for internet connected TV sets.

    > It is quite possible that entertainment of the future will not some from
    > one source but perhaps many. Perhaps you'll need a subscription to Sony,
    > one to iTunes and one to Netflix and one to some other service etc etc.


    Unfortunately, it may come to that; I hope not, though. I don't have any
    objection to having more than one provider, but I would want to be able to
    get all the content I subscribe to from the same provider.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jan 14, 2012
    #14
  15. In article <140120120210520684%>, Davoud <> wrote:

    > > Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen,
    > > I won't get it; no sense in downsizing.

    >
    > Different strokes for different folks.


    No argument here.

    It has a lot to do with the viewing distance, but of course, that's not the
    sole criterion.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jan 14, 2012
    #15
  16. JF Mezei

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-14 13:00 , Michelle Steiner wrote:

    > It has a lot to do with the viewing distance, but of course, that's notthe
    > sole criterion.


    In the Dec. 1 "The Economist" (of all rags) there was a nice treatise on
    screen size, resolution, human eye acuity and viewing distance.

    They preface the following with all the physical stuff (what 20/20
    means, viewing angles, acuity and so on) and then the following stanzas
    sumarize it well:

    QUOTE
    At the typical distance of nine feet, a 1080p HDTV set (with a screen
    1,920 pixels wide and 1,080 pixels high) needs to be at least 69 inches
    across (measured diagonally) if viewers are to see all the detail it
    offers. To see all the detail on a 32-inch set with 1080p resolution
    means sitting a little over four feet from the screen—great for
    video-gaming on your own, but hardly conducive to communal viewing.
    /QUOTE

    and (as a summary guideline):

    QUOTE
    In other words, viewers are not enjoying the full benefits of the higher
    pixel count of 1080p televisions if they sit any further back than 1.8
    times the screen width.
    /QUOTE

    (about 1.57 times the diagonal)

    IMO, one is best to sit a little further back, but not much so that
    attention to 'detail' doesn't distract from the story detail.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 14, 2012
    #16
  17. JF Mezei

    JF Mezei Guest

    Alan Browne wrote:

    > It will be interesting to see if the assholes at the Canadian Radio and
    > Television Commission decide to regulate internet television with
    > Canadian content rules [though I don't see how they would be able to, so
    > the internet may be the way to break them once and for all].


    Despite pressure from incumbent telcos/cablecos (who now own the TV
    networks except for CBC), the CRTC has ruled twices that it will not
    regulate OTT services such as Netflx etc.

    However, when those useless leaches called Global and CTV buy exclusive
    rights to a programme, it prevents internet based providers such as
    Netflix from making that programme available in Canada unless they pay
    royalties to those leaches.

    In the case of Canwest/Global (now owned by Shaw) they buy rights to
    programs they don't even air or air on their specialty channels during
    times everyone is asleep. This way, if anyone wants to show that
    programme in Canada, they need to pay Global the big bucks.

    This is why Itunes sells TV episodes for $5.00 in Canada instead of
    $0.99 in the USA.

    The day that Global and CTV stop buying foreign programmes, canada will
    be much better off because internet services will finally be able to
    give us a much better catalogue of entertainment.

    The other option is for "new" outfits such as netwflix to create their
    own original entertainment, at which point they get worldwide
    distribution righst since they own the programme.

    This is what I would very much hope they buy the rights to Fringe should
    Fox not renew it.


    And here lies the rub. When planning one's entertainment sources away
    from legacy TV, oe has to look at those issues becaue they will
    determine how OTT entertainment will look like a few years from now.


    Remember that legacy TV such as Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS provide exclusive
    distribution to the local TV stations. So if any network starts the
    shift to on-line distribution in any big way, the local TV stations will
    cry foul.
     
    JF Mezei, Jan 14, 2012
    #17
  18. JF Mezei

    Davoud Guest

    Michelle Steiner:
    > > > Besides which, unless Apple will have a TV with at least a 65" screen,
    > > > I won't get it; no sense in downsizing.


    Davoud:
    > > Different strokes for different folks.


    Michelle Steiner:
    > No argument here.
    > It has a lot to do with the viewing distance...


    Indeed. I am practically always in the same county as the TV I'm
    watching, and that obviates the need for anything larger than 32" for
    me. People talk to me of "realism" with larger screens. Huh? It's not
    real, it's TV! You want real? Turn it off and go outdoors and ride your
    bike or take a walk.

    There is one other thing. I think that televisions--all the television
    sets that I have ever seen--are ugly, and the smaller the set that will
    serve me, the better for me.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Jan 14, 2012
    #18
  19. In article <>,
    Alan Browne <> wrote:

    > QUOTE
    > In other words, viewers are not enjoying the full benefits of the higher
    > pixel count of 1080p televisions if they sit any further back than 1.8
    > times the screen width.
    > /QUOTE


    > (about 1.57 times the diagonal)


    There's quite a bit of disagreement as to what that multiplier should be.
    Here are some excerpts from a Wikipedia entry on the subject:

    Diagonal measurement x 2.5 (corresponding to 20-degree viewing angle)
    One of the more popular recommendations on the proper HDTV viewing distance
    is multiply the diagonal measurement of the display screen by 2.5. This
    recommendation is cited by television manufacturers,[15] retailers,[16]
    respected publications[17][18] and websites,[19] though the popular
    electronics review website CNET suggests that high-resolution content can
    be watched at a closer distance ­ 1.5 times the display screen's diagonal
    measurement (corresponding to 32 degree viewing angle).[20]

    Diagonal measurement x 1.6 (corresponding to 30-degree viewing angle)
    Viewing an HDTV from a position where the display occupies a 30 degree
    field of view is widely quoted as the SMPTE (or SMPTE 30) recommendation
    (equivalent to about 1.6263 times the screen size in a 16:9 TV). This
    recommendation is very popular with the home theater enthusiast
    community,[21][22] appears in books on home theater design,[23] and is also
    supported by a white paper produced by Fujitsu.[24] Although an article on
    research into setting the specification for the next evolution of HDTV,
    Ultra HDTV (or UHDTV), does support the premise that HDTV was optimized for
    a view angle of 30 degrees,[10] there seems to be no direct recommendation
    from SMPTE on the issue.

    Diagonal measurement x 1.2 (corresponding to 40-degree viewing angle)
    THX recommends that the ³best seat-to-screen distance² is one where the
    view angle approximates 40 degrees,[25] (the actual angle is 40.04
    degrees).[3] Their recommendation was originally presented at the 2006 CES
    show, and was stated as being the theoretical maximum horizontal view
    angle, based on average human vision.[26] In the opinion of THX the
    location where the display is viewed at a 40 degree view angle provides the
    most ³immersive cinematic experience²,[25] all other things considered. For
    consumer application of their recommendations, THX recommends dividing the
    diagonal screen measurement by .84 to calculate the optimum viewing
    distance, for a 1080p resolution. This equates to multiplying the diagonal
    measurement with about 1.2. [25]

    In my case, it's a 65" diagonal at a 15' viewing distance.

    --Michelle

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jan 14, 2012
    #19
  20. JF Mezei

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-14 14:29 , JF Mezei wrote:
    > Alan Browne wrote:
    >
    >> It will be interesting to see if the assholes at the Canadian Radio and
    >> Television Commission decide to regulate internet television with
    >> Canadian content rules [though I don't see how they would be able to, so
    >> the internet may be the way to break them once and for all].

    >
    > Despite pressure from incumbent telcos/cablecos (who now own the TV
    > networks except for CBC), the CRTC has ruled twices that it will not
    > regulate OTT services such as Netflx etc.
    >
    > However, when those useless leaches called Global and CTV buy exclusive
    > rights to a programme, it prevents internet based providers such as
    > Netflix from making that programme available in Canada unless they pay
    > royalties to those leaches.


    The Bell/CTV tieup is in play as well. I'm surprised the Bell assholes
    aren't blocking feeds from CTV over Videotron (who totally blow away
    Bell in internet in Quebec).

    Oddly I watched a make up edition of Blue Bloods the other night from
    CTV over the internet - no commercials - not one. (Usually there's one
    commercial per segment, about 5 or 6 in all for the program).

    > In the case of Canwest/Global (now owned by Shaw) they buy rights to
    > programs they don't even air or air on their specialty channels during
    > times everyone is asleep. This way, if anyone wants to show that
    > programme in Canada, they need to pay Global the big bucks.
    >
    > This is why Itunes sells TV episodes for $5.00 in Canada instead of
    > $0.99 in the USA.


    I just looked, an episode of Grey's Anatomy is CA$2.99. Big Bang Theory
    is $3.49. (Former is 1 hour, later is 30 minutes - what?).

    (But I can't see the US prices).

    I wonder if a web-proxy would bypass that? Should - maybe need a
    separate iTunes account.

    > The day that Global and CTV stop buying foreign programmes, canada will
    > be much better off because internet services will finally be able to
    > give us a much better catalogue of entertainment.


    That argument is one reason for me to not abandon cable. It also
    explains why the cable co. shows the "Canadian" feed when I tune to a US
    station. [Bizarrely, the ABC clock in NY upstate is about 2 minutes
    late (UTC) so I always see the last couple minutes repeated...]

    > The other option is for "new" outfits such as netwflix to create their
    > own original entertainment, at which point they get worldwide
    > distribution righst since they own the programme.
    >
    > This is what I would very much hope they buy the rights to Fringe should
    > Fox not renew it.
    >
    >
    > And here lies the rub. When planning one's entertainment sources away
    > from legacy TV, oe has to look at those issues becaue they will
    > determine how OTT entertainment will look like a few years from now.
    >
    >
    > Remember that legacy TV such as Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS provide exclusive
    > distribution to the local TV stations. So if any network starts the
    > shift to on-line distribution in any big way, the local TV stations will
    > cry foul.


    Good thing I don't watch much tv.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 14, 2012
    #20
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